Yo class,
I wish we had more time in class today to discuss the video we saw from Garrett Hardin. So, I want you to use this blog as a forum to think about what he stated and to comment on it.
Here are the questions I want you to consider:
1) If this man was not white or of European descent would this be viewed with a different mentality?
2) What point is Hardin making? Do you think it is valid? What advantages are there to what he says? What flaws are there in his "logical" thinking?
3) How does this view of ethnic separation make you feel? Discuss, if you would like, a time when your ethnicity was on the main stage for either a comforting or discomforting moment.
Next, I've been thinking about your chapter four project and check this out: class website
I sorta kinda have some ideas about how to assess this project, but I really think it'd be cool to publish something (whatever it is we will investigate) on-line and open it up to other folks to comment on. What do you think? How can we open up our class in a meaningful and academic and learning focused way? Think about it and post your ideas.
Finally, by popular demand I have posted class powerpoint notes. Check out DA SPOT. Have a good weekend...
ONE
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17 comments:
Jorge Che ToledoI think this man is too racist to consider his opinions. Throughout the video he tries to pretend he is not a medieval nazi maniac but clearly he doesn't achieve this...I also think he generalizes too much. We can't blame very single black or foreign person for the crimes of those of their etnicity, as we can´t blame every German for F***ING Hitler's assassinations. In my opinion, those who are not westerners/materialistic American/European are much better people than us. You only have to see Senegal.This guy obviously has had some incident with a person of any ''not pure race'' (as if there was a purer race than the indigenous people of Australia or South America). He feels uncomfortable and might even envy them (Jewish are the best at handling money, Goldman Sachs, not Lehman Brothers hahahahahhah) hence he feels that they have invaded their country to take the good jobs from the original people in America (the Indians, not him!!!). I don't understand this silly patriotism. The United States of America were created and united by immigrants, dammit!I think his main point (to segregate and ONLY SEGREGATE) would just make things worse. Humanity has had many struggles, wars, life losses to start again and make ethnically distinguished countries. Some people say that, in two generations, everyone will be mixed/half blooded. Why throw away so much time of ethnic mixing?
No one beleives I'm Jewish (by the way, being Jewish is not only beleiving in Judaism but it is also an ethnic group and race. Hitler didn't care about religion). Toledo is actually a Jewish surname. My grandfather was from Israel and came to Spain changing our surname. Jews have always been bullied or made jokes about. First, the romans conquered their country. Then, they were between the two powerful religions: Islam and Cristianity, which tried to persuade them to convert to their religion. Then, they were not an 'aryan' race. Finally, when the
they had established in their country after WWII the Arab Israeli war. Now, the Palestinians and Ahmadinejad(or however that freaky man of God is called) want to make them disappear from the map.
The ideas will come tomorrow...
Before i say anything else, the man who was in the video was probably in his 80's so i just wanna say that when he was growing up, people had different views on race, religion, nationality, etc. than we do today so what he said probably would've been accepted when he was our age into his 20's and 30's but today people hav changed their views on those topics. If the person being interviewed was not of white or European descent, then i do think that the video would've been viewed with a different mentality. The way the speaker said his views was the same way that a white supremesist, such as a neo-nazi or KKK would say it. They are hate groups and they are white, but in the U.S., there are not any as well known hispanic, black, jewish, etc. hate groups as well known as aryan nations and the KKK, that's one reason i think that the video would be viewed differently if the speaker was not white, this guy maybe could've been part of the KKK when he was young. The point that Garret Hardin is trying to make is that there would be a more stable world if people were segregated, and stayed in their own countries based on their nationality and religion. He used India and Pakistan as an example, if all Hindus stayed in India and all Muslims stayed in Pakistan, then there would be no fight about Jamu and Kashmir, but his flaws in his thinking are because he is segregating by religon, and he suggest that everyone stays in their own country, he is segregating by nationality. I am totally against ethnic seperation. A blend of ethnicities is what makes a country, like the U.S., or even cities, such as New York, London, Paris, etc. so great, all ethnicites brieng their cultures together and create a whole new atmosphere of learning.
A time i feel sort of discomftrable about my ethnicity is when i go to Idaho, where our home is in Washington State is just 30 mins from the border so we go to Idaho a lot. Idaho is a beautiful state but it has little ethnic minorities, maybe its just N. Idaho but the last time i went there i only saw 1 Black Person and 3 East Indian People and the rest were white. Idaho also used to be the headquarters for Aryan nations, but they left, but there are still bald white guys with beards and tatoos around. Also once when i was in London, I was walking from my hotel to a subway and i saw three white guys throwing like papers at this Indian guy, there were a lot of ppl around but nobody did anything, 2 of them might of been skinheads, but i just avoided them because if i woulda walked there they plly woulda thrown something at me.
I think for the presentation, we could publish a powerpoint online about language families, such as romance languages, germanic languages, indo-aryan languages, etc. and write were they are spoken, how many speakers, and we can include some basic phrases.
Okay first of all i want to say that thois video was one of the most idiotic videos i've ever seen. but it is not the first time that i have seen a video like this or reaad something that was kind off based on this theory> it reminds me of this time when i was writing as essay about occurences in the year 1931. there was a scientist who believed in extermination of different races. basically his theory was that there should be inter-racial marriages so that soon different characteristics that define races will become fewer and fewer and soon there will be one race occuppying the planet.
i personally disagree with theories that support segregation by race on the 'extinction' of a race.
this is like a lab experiment.just because people have diiferent ehtnic backgrounds that does not mean that we can not co exist. i mean look at nature. just because elephants are different from bufalo that does not mean they are segragated because they are different.
if the person was a different race and had said these things most likeley they would have been frowned upon. Or they would have been said to have some personal motive.
there are no advantages of his type of system. ther are many disadvantages such as advaces in technology would be much slower since the blending of different ideas would be almost nullified.
First I'd like to say that every time I read Jorge's posts, I just feel a lot of indignation...
I disagree with this man who, I agree, is so sure of himself and thinks he is a genius. I'd like to bring in Faith's comment about the elephants and buffaloes. In nature, there is no segregation like what Hardin talks about. Sure, different species hang around with themselves, but they do not segregate themselves completely from one another. They live side by side in communities and interact with each other both beneficially and malevolently. It would be... unnatural for us to be separated depending on our cultures, because integration is important for our lives. About Pakistan and India, if somehow Kashmir (i think that's the place that's being disputed over by the two) was given to Pakistan, and all the Muslims in the area went to Pakistan and all the Hindus went to India, it still wouldn't end conflict like Hardin says. Cultural diversity is not the only factor of conflict, but that's what this man is implying. He's stupid. Disputes can be based on so many other reasons, like financial or territorial. In a society, cultural difference is not the only reason for issues. For example, I think the guy said something about crime, maybe not, i dunno. But it doesn't matter if he didn't because that would be one of the many issues that communities or societies will still face even if "national segregation" is accomplished. Hardin also states that nations that are divided up by cultures will "manage" as long as they have those barriers of nationality between them. Oh no countries won't have problems between each other as long as they have the national "barrier" between them. They'll just stay where they are and not care about anything outside their area. A valid observation Mr. Hardin (that was sarcastic for those who didn't catch that). I mean, does this man honestly think that just because Muslims are in one countrry and Christians in another will stop any conflicts between the two? I agree, this might be possible, but it's just such an idiotic concept because if we want this thing to work, then each nation would need to be very, very, very isolated, only working within their own world. Also, not all people in a culture are the same either. Hardin is implying that all Christians are the same; all Muslims are the same; all Hindus are the same, etc. That's really generalizing. Looking at Christians alone, there are many different branches of Christianity. In addition to that, there are different forms of those branches depending on different communities or countries. For example, Korean methodist churches have slightly different aspects from let's say American ones. This dude is sort of seeing cultures and religions as single variables, while a culture is not defined by single things. Like we discussed in class, one individual can be a part of many different cultures. Well then, what if a Russian muslim who listens to hip/hop music and speaks Portuguese needed to be placed according to national segregation. Where would he go?
Should we cut him into little pieces? I've got more to say but I've forgotten some while writing.
If Hardin was of a different descent, then I think it may be viewed with a different mentality because, many of us are aware of the history of racism against people of different colour, and the fact that this is a white man talking about segregation may affect some people and might claim that he is racist, although I personally don't think so. However, if he was a black american, for example, then some people may be okay with this because he is "black." I think this because, not everyone of course, but I sometimes notice that some people are more sensitive towards white people on the topic of racism than they are towards black people, even if they do not mean to be racist. For example, I know that a lot of black people are fine with saying the "n" word, but when a white person says it, it becomes really serious. Also, here in Senegal even, sometimes the people here can be more--although it's not to the extent racism--prejudicial or generalizing...I can't find the right word. When I walk down a street, occasionally people yell out "china boy!" or something like that, and start pretending to speak Chinese. Yet, in Europe or America or other places, if, let's say an American said something like "Hey Africa boy" and started talking gibberish in what they say is 'African' (how ignorant... I always get annoyed when people ask if we speak African in Africa), I think people would get more angry. So I'm not sure how I got to this topic but this kind of mentality may affect a person's viewpoint of this video if the man were of a different ethnicity.
I think i watched the wrong video concidering other ppls comments :O
is it the one about the old man speaking of segregation and his ideas on how to reach world peace? well if it is, i think he has some very valid points. Some ethnic groups living among other ethnic groups cannot be a good combination; Its like putting together fire and ice, only one can be there in order to be in its natural (Happy) state. I have to agree that sometimes (like in India) different religions will not tolerate eachother, one way to solve this would be to somehow morph their government into an equally sided party. To split up into seperate nations ( if the people would agree) would be one possible solution. Then again some places (as Akhokem mentioned) are teeming with so many different religions, ethnicities and races that you cant split them up, in that case people should somehow either try to adapt to the original culture that was there or do waht they do now, have seperate neighborhoods where each can be happy (China Town, little Italy, Marrocan Mirage, ect) why do people (jorge, if i understood his comment right) take such an offensive stance on having people live in designated or chosen areas among other people of the same kind ( i guess i could say).
In the Netherlands we have a big problem with legal immigrants from marocco, turkey and eastern europe (they say), because we have a government that gives taxmoney to the unemployed so that they can keep their house and pay their bills while they find another job. Some immigrants (also some Dutch) decide that they can live with just a house, food and stuff like that, so they feel that they dont need to get a job. Also some maroccan immigrants terrorize entire towns and cities. The Dutch in some neigborhoods are too scared to leave their house after 7, and many of the kids get beatenup and put on youtube while just taking their dog for a walk. u kno, there is alot more info to it but i'll just get back to the vid now. and i dont think he's quite saying that we should put (for example) all ........ in one seperated area. but more or less, people that have alot in common and therewith obviously dont mind... i disagree with most ppl here :P anyways, stop hating on the old man, he's just expressing his ideas and thoughts that he believes could help achieve global peace, or atleast take another step to global peace.
Also i think its an inner aspect of humans to judge people, whether its by skin color, religion, or ethnicity. If this guy were of a different race, i woukd probably interpret it a bit different, i dont know.
I would view this video in somewhat the same way if this man were of a different decent. The ideas would still be the same and would still be controversial. But i think if this man was a different race for example a Muslim in India, people would take it a lot less seriously. They would just think it is another person that wants to seperate from their country. i don't think they would even bother giving the person a proper interview.
This man is saying that people with different religion, ethnicity, and cultures can't live together. I disagree with the point he is trying to make. I think it is better that people learn to live together. Everyone can contribute something to a community and people can learn from each other. it would be kind of boring if everyone in a country had the same beliefs in general. And also, if the world were to listen to his stupid theory of segregation then Africa alone would consist of over 200 countries (and the world a lot more). The advantages of his point hmmm... well i guess people within countries would get along better. But human beings always search for conflicts so I am sure the people of the country would find things to fight about within the country or they would create conflicts with other countries.
This man is obviously in another generation. The way he was explaining his point of view was totally shocking.
I 100% sure that we would have interpreted what he said in a better way if he wouldn't be European. He was talking like a nazi.
For me, teenager of the 2008 generation, when I hear his theory it just makes me laugh. How can someone could think like that. How could we want everyone to be the same? When I was young, one of the first thing that my teachers and my parents taught me was that if everyone would be the same, life would be bored, and I think this is how I gained confidence and I can handle harassments. God created the world he didn't ask for anybody to change it. Wait yes he did and still does but he makes sure that the ideas come from people with different cultures and views.
Geoffrey
1) If this man was not white or of European descent would this be viewed with a different mentality?
2) What point is Hardin making? Do you think it is valid? What advantages are there to what he says? What flaws are there in his "logical" thinking?
3) How does this view of ethnic separation make you feel? Discuss, if you would like, a time when your ethnicity was on the main stage for either a comforting or discomforting moment.
I do think that he would be viewed differently if he were not fo european descent but it doesnt really affect what i think of his ideas. People would approach his ides with a compltley different mentality, probably a more positive 1.
I think that he si making the point that every culture/religion needs to have and to be in their own area, i dont think its a valid point, but he gives examples that really happened that he thinks make his point more credible but really i don't think what he is saying is useful.
I think its just a stupid idea, people move for so many reasons that what he is saying is just useless, who would get the most oil filled areas? the more fertile soiled lands? there is no way to actually calculate a distribuive method for his idea to happen, i think its just ridiculous.
PFfft, in venezuela when i was like 10 this guy kept saying that i came floating in a log (cause im cuban) and 1 time i just punched him in the nose when he said it then he slammed a door on my hand, fun times, he hurt me alot more thatn i hurt him, and he was like 15 at the time. wtv tho, it was on the school bus when he did this but the driver found out and got him kicked off the bus
then his mom madae him walk to school everyday, a really long distance too. nice job, idiot.
If this man was of a different ethnic decent, his opinions would unfortunately be viewed different. This is because his ethnic descent is the one that has committed the most popular crimes against other races.
Hardin's point is that every religion/culture should be separated unto different land for world peace to be possible. This isn't valid because culture are often highly influenced by diversities, and also it isn't logic. how would the resources be divided fairly between these religious groups, he is an idealist (with a failing opinion) who doesn't include logic in his vision.
I think that his ideas are simply racist and that he should reevaluate his perception of the world. As soon as people start thinking that races should be separated, then ideas such as "inferior races" and "extermination of a race" start rousing easily.
Earlier in my life i've been insulted, or disrespected because of my race. i don't remember ever backind down, i got in my first fight because of a dutch kid that called me a nigger adn said "i was the color of poop" and being in an international school, it was never hard for me to fing back up when i got racialy assaulted. before i used to get offended easily due to direct attacks, but now i actualy feel sorry for anyone who still thinks that way.
I think he would. People see a white man talk about segregation, and immediately see him in a bad light. White people were the ones enforcing segregation in schools and such, and are still held accountable. They are not the ones that suffered, and don't have the right to talk about segregation. This may be the viewpoint of some people. His point is that whenever people of different cultures mix, there will be clashes, and segregation would be the best solution. I do not know whether to agree or not, because i know my viewpoint has been greatly influenced by the values of international schools: multicultural societies. People have always said it is good to mix, but he has a point: different cultures have different values, and if those values conflict with others' values, and the government has to choose a side, it won't be pretty. The friction between different ways of thinking produces controversial topics, such as abortion and gay marriage. Yet within each culture are subcultures with their own differences, and each individual in these subcultures also has their own values that are not the exact same as other individuals in the same subculture. In short, it is not possible to segregate cultures to prevent disputes. Some people are pro abortion, and pro gay rights. Others are con abortion and con gay rights. But there are also people that are pro for one, and con for the other. How would you separate people into groups if each individual can belong to only one group? it is just not possible.
His view of ethnic separation is, like he says himself, considered controversial by some. I think this is mainly because people are always saying that we should mix and be happy etc, but why do we HAVE to mix? I am not saying i am against diversity, but maybe we should take a closer look at the things adults have been drilling into our heads. My ethnicity has had an impact on several situations. When i am in a white community, i feel 'black', and when i am in a black community i feel 'white'. However, my ethnicity is not just limited to my skin color. I was raised by my mother, who is white. I have basically been raised in a white environment, with dutch values and such, so i would say i can relate better to others when in a white(European/Dutch) community. I guess i feel more comfortable in a white community, and it is others that see me as different, whereas it is usually both me that feels different and the others that see me as different when i am in a black community. I am, for example seen as a toubab here in senegal. I'm half Senegalese!
I don't really have ideas on the project right now... I will think about it.
I think that this man has interesting ideas and that he would have been taken more seriously if he looked of a different color. Though i cannot speak for everyone because everyone is different. i think that his idea for segregation is wack. Because segregation would bring war and suffering.Myself would like the world to unite and be one ad not have segregation we are all human and we should accept our differences, this mans ideas are good in some ways and bad in others. For example he says that Muslims and Hindus cannot get along together but when Gandhi was around they were in perfect harmony and he was trying to bring them closer.This man goes against that and that is wrong because ghandi was on the right track before getting killed. He should really think more about his idea and if he changed it in some ways he could make it work i believe.
I personaly think that this guy is crazy and is loosing it, (with all the respect that a phrase like that can offer...) I beleive that his only point about segregation of nations being good, which is that it would decrease the amount of fights and stuff like that between the nations, is the dumbest idea i have ever heard. It has been shown (several times through out history) that when there are a lot of different groups of people that are not the same, in religion or race, there will be fighting at some point wether they are seperated or not. For example, in the communist manifesto that karl marx wrote, he said that each war and querel came from the battle for power. This kind of reminds me of that because wether the nations are seperated or not they will always be a want for more power from both of them. I also beleive that this old dude's comments would have been taken slightly more seriously if he had been from a different race because of the same reason as arnaud. He is from the race that did the most wrong to the other races around them. However this doesn't change that wether the man making these points was black or white, they would still be concidered crap from most of us.
just for jorge's wild comment...
when u say
(''not pure race'' as if there was a purer race than the indigenous people of Australia or South Americ). He feels uncomfortable and might even envy them )
and then you say
(everyone will be mixed/half blooded)
can u plz explain which part of the blood u called "half blooded" is the one that decreases it by 50%
I think that if the man was European or of another descent, the video would be viewed the same. Even though Europe is joined together as a union, many nations and ethnic groups are separated and just last year a new country was made because some people were a different ethnic group than Serbians. He is making the point that people need to be segregated in order to prevent loss of life and to make sure everyone's happy. I think it is valid. Look at what is happening in Afghanistan and Iraq with the Shi'ites and Sunnis and look at the border drawn between North and South Korea. I think most of it is right, except for the fact that there are many diplomats overseas and they seem to not get killed too often and that in America, both white Americans and African-Americans live. I think that sometimes it will limit interaction between the rest of the world for ethnic groups and they might be isolated much of their lives, but overall it is worth it. For example, I am Jewish American, and if I was brought into the rest of the world in the US and told them I was Jewish, they would probably make fun of me and even kill me because of my religion.
hi
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